Curse

baz777 · Oct 06, 2006, 12:05 PM // 12:05

As we now have a ‘new’ HA would it not be a good idea, like the GVG ladder reset, to use this opportunity to reset everyone’s fame back to zero?

luilui · Oct 06, 2006, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by baz777

As we now have a ‘new’ HA would it not be a good idea, like the GVG ladder reset, to use this opportunity to reset everyone’s fame back to zero?

yea, might as well send all the pve char to pre-searing with lvl 0 ^^

Formosa · Oct 06, 2006, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zui

VIM is trash. People are only running it because IWAY doesn't scale well in 6 vs 6.

As for smite and pressure builds, what's wrong with them? They pretty much fit under the category of balanced you know. They're alot better than Blood Spike, IWAY, Ele Spike, and more Bood Spike, too.

As for newer players, 6 vs 6 helps them only by making groups easier to form.

I dunno, we faced Tomb Cruise/Eternal Ecstasy's IWAY early last night and it looked like they had a hell of a lot more pressure than in 8 man (in 8 man when I faced them their pressure generally...sucked >_>). After killing off their 1st 5 they all rezed and owned us. But then again we were running a solo meteor shower spike gimmick.

Brewski101 · Oct 06, 2006, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by supaet

FLAME, hehe, you're the typical example that why newbie do not participate in hoh. Your excuses are full of crap. couple hours is more than enough. You tell me that your guidie/alliance on the same boat, and you say you cant get in group? why don't you play with them? not enough? "guild group lf xxx" you form groups in no time. Cant win? cant gain fame? Oh no, you don't play to gain fame, you lose nothing when you lose. If you affraid of losing, you will never win. Abusive? how so? a Rank9+ group that slaughter your noob group? They taught you guys a lesson. They got slaughtered alot more times than your group before becoming this good. Got mock for fame farming? no, you don't play iway to farm fame, you play iway to learn hoh. You do not play for fame, you play for fun. If you find no fun losing, i'm sorry, competitive gaming isnt for you. But I'm sure you will lose alot more and get abuse alot more in your life. END FLAME.

6v6 will not change a thing for you. You wont get in high rank groups, you still lose to good groups, if you call that abusive, then you are a loser.

Oh, I don't mind losing. Never have. I don't even mind a little trash talk. What I'm referring to is being pm spammed for no reason other than the fact that I don't have an emote. Or when we do lose (and sometimes when we win), the other team throwing insults and profanity rather than "gg" or any other good natured response.

As for the guild/alliance, we do HA together, and lately we've even started holding regular practice sessions and HA nights. But as I said, we're a small group, so getting together at the same time is difficult at best. The reduction in team size will actually help us a bit, as it'll be easier to form an all guild/alliance team, which all leads back to my point that the change is good from ANet's perspective, since it attracts new players (their only source of income) to the game by making it easier for them to learn and join in the fun. (Remember "fun", the reason you're supposed to play the game?)

As for the Flame supaet, thanks. I was a bit worried no one would flame the post, and my point would be lost. Thanks for making it for me. If you'd like to make it for me again, feel free to flame some more. I won't be responding to any additional flames on this thread, so I'm an open target!

KitsunE81 · Oct 06, 2006, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by baz777

As we now have a ‘new’ HA would it not be a good idea, like the GVG ladder reset, to use this opportunity to reset everyone’s fame back to zero?

LOl, it's not enough that half of the people quit, let's make everyone quit.

I didn't want to say anything untill I tried it, and I just did some 6v6 and I'm telling you, I don't like it. And all of you saying it's easier for new players now, well, it's not, burial mounds is gone, broken tower is 3v3 and scarred earth is gank city.

Yup... I really hate this update.

Xioden · Oct 06, 2006, 03:38 PM // 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by KitsunE81

I didn't want to say anything untill I tried it, and I just did some 6v6 and I'm telling you, I don't like it. And all of you saying it's easier for new players now, well, it's not, burial mounds is gone, broken tower is 3v3 and scarred earth is gank city.

Now unless I'm missing something here from the update... Wasn't there mention of New maps..? All I'm seeing is making a few maps gank fests and taking one out..

supaet · Oct 06, 2006, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brewski101

Oh, I don't mind losing. Never have. I don't even mind a little trash talk. What I'm referring to is being pm spammed for no reason other than the fact that I don't have an emote. Or when we do lose (and sometimes when we win), the other team throwing insults and profanity rather than "gg" or any other good natured response.

As for the guild/alliance, we do HA together, and lately we've even started holding regular practice sessions and HA nights. But as I said, we're a small group, so getting together at the same time is difficult at best. The reduction in team size will actually help us a bit, as it'll be easier to form an all guild/alliance team, which all leads back to my point that the change is good from ANet's perspective, since it attracts new players (their only source of income) to the game by making it easier for them to learn and join in the fun. (Remember "fun", the reason you're supposed to play the game?)

As for the Flame supaet, thanks. I was a bit worried no one would flame the post, and my point would be lost. Thanks for making it for me. If you'd like to make it for me again, feel free to flame some more. I won't be responding to any additional flames on this thread, so I'm an open target!

Just teasing, never was flaming. Getting pm spam for being low rank? never heard that before. Were you try to get into a high rank group? Why does it has to be an all guild/alliance group when you guys are that small. Nothing will change. If you're a newbie/low rank, and you try to run a non-gimmick build, you still lose to those newbies who have the same rank as you running a gimmick build.

As for the poster who said degen/pressure build is a balance build. They're balance build in 8v8 but not in 6v6. Cause in 6v6, every degen/pressure team has a crip shot ranger, a hex alot necro or mes, two monks, a warrior or a interupting ranger, that's 5 slots already! How is it a balance build when 5/6 slots has its function predetermined? in 6v6 I see a lower possibility of balance builds because you needs at least 2 monks to keep the party healthy. Then you only have 4 slots left. In 8v8, even if you have 3 monks, you still have 5 slots. Balance build=multiple damage sources, multiple counters, and some skills that are for specific maps. As a result, in 6v6, there is less "balance" in builds.

Boofhead · Oct 06, 2006, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Burial mounds was just Underworld redux anyway.

drekmonger · Oct 06, 2006, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Vimway is being played, but generally not winning Halls. It'll be completely dead the millisecond Nightfall ships thanks to Vocal Minority.

There are a lot of people running Air of Enchantment Smiters. So bring counters. Removing zealot's fire kills their damage, for example.

I was hoping for more in terms of map changes. The altar matches are still broken and lame, I think. Maybe even more broken and lame.

Brewski101 · Oct 06, 2006, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by supaet

Just teasing, never was flaming.

Good to know, although now my flames are 0, which is a bit disappointing...

Quote:

Originally Posted by supaet

Getting pm spam for being low rank? never heard that before. Were you try to get into a high rank group?

Oh yeah, it's happened to me, and guildies have told me similar stories. In my case, I joined a group who was advertising without a rank requirement (apparently by mistake). They asked for an emote, I told them I was rank 0 (at the time), they booted me and then three of the guys spent the next coupld of minutes pm spaming "GET LOST NOOB!".

Quote:

Originally Posted by supaet

Why does it has to be an all guild/alliance group when you guys are that small.

It doesn't have to be, it's just easier. With an all guild/alliance group, everyone already knows and respects other players. You don't get booted for making a mistake in one match, and you get constructive criticism after your done. Basically, everyone tries to help everyone else get better.

I've never been in a PUG that did that. Similarly, if we have say 6/8 and we pick up two PUGS, odds are good that at least one will rage quit if we lose the first match.

Quote:

Originally Posted by supaet

Nothing will change. If you're a newbie/low rank, and you try to run a non-gimmick build, you still lose to those newbies who have the same rank as you running a gimmick build.

Maybe things won't change in the long run, but in the short run it upsets the balance for everyone, giving a rare opportunity for groups and players to get in and get some experience.

Just as an example: How can we ever get good at countering a spike, when every spike team we go up against has their timing down perfectly? When you lose a match in less than a minute, you don't learn much...

By forcing major changes to the way the system works, we now have a chance to learn the new builds as people are developing them, rather than after they've been playing the exact same build for a year.

Basically, going back to my main point, by changing the way HA works so dramatically, ANet is shaking up an entrenched, somewhat stagnant, area of the game. It'll force inovation on everyone, and bring a lot of new people in to at least try it. If it's broken, they'll adjust again.

Personally, I'll start worrying about the long term future of Guild Wars when they stop making major changes like this. That'll mean they've given up on the game, and it's on it's way out...

Mystic- · Oct 06, 2006, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brewski101

change is good from ANet's perspective, since it attracts new players (their only source of income) to the game by making it easier for them to learn and join in the fun. (Remember "fun", the reason you're supposed to play the game?)

It won't only be attracting new players, it will be loosing soo many. Much more then it gains, therefore the only source of income (more players) won't be there as they will have less. You are also saying "fun" is the reason you are supposed to play the game? Well many more people prefer 8v8 and so the element of "fun" is no longer there.

Navaros · Oct 06, 2006, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

In your dreams. 16v8 situations don't make it take more skill, it just makes luck a bigger factor. No amount of skill will save you in 16 v 8 situation if they actually are all attacking just your team.
Blah blah blah. These guilds were using GvG builds in HA, that's why they lost. We had the same problem, our guild leader insisted that we tested GvG builds in HA, which pretty much meant we got owned. And of course here you are expecting that people who don't play HA, start completely owning it up the moment they start playing there. Besides many top guilds like RenO and WM completely own HA every time they show up.

No doubt luck can be a big factor in the outcome of 3 teams vs. each other matchups but at the same time clever and proficient tactics and skills can often pull the rug out from under both opposing teams and leave them thinking "How in the heck did that happen?" as they lose.

I didn't expect GVG teams who never played Tombs to win. Rather, I merely expected them to not say "Tombs takes no skill" just because they got massacred by IWAY because they had no skills at Tombs. If they had instead said: "We got massacred by IWAY because we are a top GVG guild that sucks at Tombs, although we appreciate that Tombs does indeed take a lot of skill", that would have been fine.

As for those who think gimmicks are going to go away in one or two weeks, no, they're not. Any build which inherently requires more than 1 hour to form and the use of TS or Vent - ie: any non-gimmick build - is never going to be common other than among "hardcore PVP players". Therefore, gimmick builds will always still be King in 6v6 or with anything else Anet ever does to Tombs. Better to accept that reality than to keep raging against something that can and will never be stopped.

bryann380 · Oct 06, 2006, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Personally, I could care less about HA or PvP in general, although I do try it every now and then just for the heck of it. But at the same time, I'm wanting a deer emote. Oh well, these changes won't bother me at all.

Ron vo · Oct 06, 2006, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Some people are just hating this because their own builds wont be at its maxium power because of the 6v6 change. I personally hate it and like it,6v6 means less torment and the downside of this is lack of power equals lack of winning. I Shindo,The Nightmare,thank Anet for this update...

P.S.Should have added the double fame win also o_O

Lorekeeper · Oct 06, 2006, 11:50 PM // 23:50

My first ever post on these discussion forums. Main reason for posting is in reaction to the changes implemented to HA.

I myself got excited about the changes. Maybe they realised how flawed some of the maps are and they decided to replace them with new ones... or maybe they redesigned the old maps to cater for the smaller teams. Obviously, 6 man teams would use up less space than 8 man teams. Not to mention on larger maps with more teams like Courtyard and HOH, 3 teams of 8 = 24 players. Now 3x6= 18 players. Thats 8 less players in the courtyard. Talk about no-mans land. Hows the air over there? Suffice to say, i welcomed some fundamental changes in the Tombs maps.

My main point is this.

''Exciting map changes''

What did this amount to? Do tell,

Anet do tell....

I log on this morning before i went to my lecture, anticipation building up akin to when i used to prepare for my rugby games at school >< lol

Took out Burial mound from rotation.
Added switches to Scarred earth so you can open gates whenever you want.
Increased number of teams on Broken tower to 3 (like the old days).
Reduced timer count to 4min on Broken Tower and Courtyard.

The excitement overcame me, i lost bladder control, i screamed with joy, and i danced like a maniac until the doctors came to take me somewhere ''safe''. I clawed frantically at the carpet as they dragged me away from the desk. All the while shouting ''Tombs has been saaaaved!!!!''

THEN, i opened my eyes and read the update notes again.

I dont care about the changes from 8 man to 6 man in Tombs. To be honest, all i need to do is adapt my idea on how builds work and move on.... no crying from me on that part. Change is not inherently a bad thing, the way you react to change is what dictates your role in the new environment.

What i find totally unbelievable is that Anet have not changed what i believe to be the major stumbling point of Tombs. The maps. 8 vs 8 was not flawed, 6 vs 6 is not flawed. Its the environment you give to the teams that dictates how the battles are fought.

Just to highlight my point.

I watched a Scarred Earth match today. Just any old random one. I wont say who was playing.

Ill call the teams A B C and D.

A fights B

C fights D

A defeats B and makes its way towards the area C and D are fighting.

C has wiped all but 2 of team D, however

Team A opens the gates and interrupts the fight, allowing the 2 remaining players from team D a chance to escape from team C.

So Team A and Team C are fighting, and eventually Team A gains the upperhand. At which point 3 members from Team C decide to run from the fight to escape.

Now we have 2 players from Team D and 3 from Team C running around scarred earth. While Team A... the clear winners of a tough fight, are forced to chase them around for what was close to 10 extra minutes after defeating its opponents before finally wiping the last players and moving onto the next map.

Sorry about the long story btw.

Scarred Earth is now the 3rd map in rotation. If you win, you gain a whopping huge reward of 3 fame.

Now Team A who won Scarred earth, had just spent close to 15min to win 3 fame. Lets assume Underworld took 4-5min, and Broken tower took 4 min to win. Team A spent so far has spent, over 20min to win 3 fame. I admit, the maps following scarred earth have little problems with them. Relic runs have a set timer, the priest swap tends to be a good fast map, courtyard now has a timer, final relic run has a timer also, and hoh well is hoh. But Scarred earth really needs a change.

Wat happens if i have only 1-2 hours a day to play? If this is true, and i start the game at rank 0... how long will it take me to earn rank 9 if tombs fame comes this slow? I might as well forget reaching rank 9.

In summary,

i really am worried for the new pvp players who are a vital part of the pvp community. Not only is a 6 man team much more intimate in terms of pressure to perform, but it seems like Anet has not done much to encourage new players to keep coming back for more. Especially if they finally do reach Scarred earth and then witness the various ''lamers'' who find it funny to run around instead of accepting defeat with dignity.

For an old timer like me, i stopped tombing as a regular one reason being seeing this type of behaviour being employed by some teams. There are many reasons why i frown upon it, but the main reason being, its a waste of my time.

I was looking forward to these ''exciting changes'' because i thought they would eradicate the awful strategies employed by teams to exploit the maps to their favour. I dont frown on teams who ''USE'' the map to their favour like line of sight, elevated positions and choke points etc. But it seems like the EXTRA space on some maps were left behind as an afterthought of older times like when Scarred earth was occupied by 8 teams instead of 4. (or was it 6 it was so long ago).

Thank god they removed burial mounds, because it also suffered from this EXTRA space as a legacy of its 6 vs 6 nature. I would cringe when only after 1min into a battle a bloodspike team would hop off for a sunday jog around the outer areas. If they removed this map from the rotation... why not Scarred earth??? (im sure we can think of some ingenious ways of making the running around impossible if we really wanted to be honest... didnt need to totally cut out maps)

i must apologise everyone, ive ranted for too long. Mods feel free to cut it down if you want.

later

Lorekeeper

Nurse With Wound · Oct 07, 2006, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystic-

It won't only be attracting new players, it will be loosing soo many. Much more then it gains, therefore the only source of income (more players) won't be there as they will have less. You are also saying "fun" is the reason you are supposed to play the game? Well many more people prefer 8v8 and so the element of "fun" is no longer there.

QFT. Lots of friends left the game, and my guild practically stopped playing crippled HA. I guess more will leave soon. We dont like the new system AT ALL, and lots of us gave dozens of arguments against the change in the coresponding thread in Heroes Ascend subforum.

We got 2 great game modes. Now only one left ( gvg ). They took away half of the fun. I cancelled my Nightfall CE pre-order, and I'll wait what will happen next... not so sure about buying it anymore.

supaet · Oct 07, 2006, 01:35 AM // 01:35

OK where are those "new" or "low rank" player who think that 6v6 will help them a easier time to get into ha. Please speak up now. What you think? are you being accepted by higher rank players? Do you still get own by a certain build?

Well said Lorekeeper. In 8v8 there are more open to mistakes and a certain bad skill use by players. But in 6v6, every move is more significant. Now I require that everyone in my group to be around my rank level. Back in the 8v8, I won't check everyone's rank. In 8v8, with one bad player, my group can still win at least a couple matches on average. But now, you can't afford one bad player. only 6 per team. Have fun getting into teams newbie. If you think that hoh is better for newbie now, please think again and post what you think. Please post. I want to know if any newbie feel it's easier for them to getinto hoh and work their way up now.

defrule · Oct 07, 2006, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by supaet

OK where are those "new" or "low rank" player who think that 6v6 will help them a easier time to get into ha. Please speak up now. What you think? are you being accepted by higher rank players? Do you still get own by a certain build?

Well said Lorekeeper. In 8v8 there are more open to mistakes and a certain bad skill use by players. But in 6v6, every move is more significant. Now I require that everyone in my group to be around my rank level. Back in the 8v8, I won't check everyone's rank. In 8v8, with one bad player, my group can still win at least a couple matches on average. But now, you can't afford one bad player. only 6 per team. Have fun getting into teams newbie. If you think that hoh is better for newbie now, please think again and post what you think. Please post. I want to know if any newbie feel it's easier for them to getinto hoh and work their way up now.

good post, yes. new players sud speak up speak up.

explodemyheart · Oct 07, 2006, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by supaet

OK where are those "new" or "low rank" player who think that 6v6 will help them a easier time to get into ha. Please speak up now. What you think? are you being accepted by higher rank players? Do you still get own by a certain build?

I'm not really a "newbie", per se. I've been playing GW for over a year now. I wasn't big into PvP until December or so of 2005. I've been gradually accumulating rank since then, sometimes in large bursts, sometimes in small. Mostly because if I do too much of something at once, I get bored of it... that whole ADD thing, you know. I'm at 147 fame as of now. Mostly all gained through balanced or build tests with old guilds.

Am I the best player? No. I don't know everything and I'm willing to learn, but I know a lot more than a lot of the people that I have to party with in order to gain maybe 1 or 2 fame in an hour. So much so that they just give me a headache. I accepted a long time ago that until I gain rank, these are the people that I'm going to have to party with, regardless of how much I just want to scream noob at them.

My guild is strictly a friend's only guild. We're small. We don't have enough people, period, to start up a guild-only group. We resort to PUGs, that's fine... whatever. If they do well, they stick with us and we keep trying. If they don't, they either leave, or we boot them and pick someone else up. No problem. If I'm the only one on in my guild, and I feel like playing some HA I roll in by myself to look for a group.

6v6, honestly, is making it harder for unranked people to not only find groups, but put together groups (I never figured it would make things easier though, only harder). Both were enough of a pain in the ass before. If I look for a group, I end up sitting around for close to an hour spamming what my build is, that I can switch to any build needed, and that I have both TS and Vent with no results. Trying to put together a specific, non-gimmick build now is a pain in the ass too. I'm not going to put my effort into a group that's just randomly thrown together - I want an actual build. Everybody's looking for bloodspike, vimway, smites, or a ranked group. I spent close to 2 and a half hours earlier putting together a new 6-man pressure build. My boyfriend and I can cover the two most complicated parts of the builds and all we need are fillers, more or less, for the rest of the parts. Nobody wants anything to do with it though, because they're all about the quick, easy way out (smites).

I'm not really complaining. I'm over it. What's done is done, and I'll deal with the outcome of it and eventually squeak my way to rank 3 by whatever means necessary. Simply stating my experience so far with the 8v8 vs. 6v6 difference and that I feel it's harder to find a group. I definitely see how this change will drive people away from HA altogether.

SziP · Oct 07, 2006, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Thank you anet for loosing half of my HA guild and also me, HA was what i liked. Got rank 9, i worked hard ive invested huge amounts of time and effort into it, i was looking forward to rank 10 or even more.Now HA is turned into a playground for 13 year old kids. If i knew they would do this, honeslty i wouldnt of wasted my time liking and playing this game.

If there is something left, that is a little bit of GvG and thats it. Im NOT purchasing Nightfall , Guild Wars was my only MMO. Ive accepted all the nerfs, skill balancing and i was even waiting for an AUCTION house , i really tought you can do it, but forget it.

Anet played a very smart tricky game, made double fame and 6 vs 6, so newcomers would like it and force the veternas to like it FOR THE MOMENT. Right when HA was cleared up and was getting even more enjoyable 6 vs 6 came along.

GREAT JOB Anet!, your amazing!

NOT!!!!!